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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby Ivan Denisov » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:28 am

Rene, you did not understand us :) nobody whats tree of different BlackBoxes. But we wants that every has ability to suggest the fix or feature based on current stable version for further discussion but the "center".

If there are no development there no need in "stable" and "not stable" versions, but if the development goes it is impossible to avoid some "release candidate" stage of development. Reading you I am not believe that you have experience in software development.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:36 pm

Ivan Denisov wrote:Reading you I am not believe that you have experience in software development.


;v) You really want to go there?

I started professional software development in 1992 when I was employed at the Austrian worker's union for white collar workers (http://www.gpa-djp.at/servlet/ContentSe ... ex&n=GPA_0). Development in VB on Win3.1 and in C on Sinix. After 1 year, I switched to Konsum, a then major food trade company in Austria. Development in PL/I on IBM3270, both CICS and BATCH. After 2 years, I switched to PLOT AG (http://www.plot.at), who rented me out to Telekom Austria (now A1, http://www.a1.net/), development in DL/I, PL/I, COBOL on IBM3270 and project management (this was in 1996), both CICS and BATCH, next came SPARDAT (now ERSTE BANK IT, http://www.erstegroupit.com/at-de/), development in COBOL, ADABAS NATURAL, PL/1 both CICS and BATCH. Then Unicreditgroup's (https://www.unicreditgroup.eu/en.html) Bank Austria (http://www.bankaustria.at) then EDV-company DSI. I was project manager there again, and I programmed in PLI on IBM3270, both CICS and BATCH. After two years, that company urged me to switch away from PLOT and be their employee directly. That was in 2002. PLOT demanded 50.000 EUR transfer money, and Unicreditgroup Bank Austria paid willingly.

In 2009 I switched within Unicredtgroup and am now an employee of the bank itself. Unicredit is one of central Europe's systemically important financial institution (says the FSB), Bank Austria is the largest bank in Austria. For the last years I was project manager and project member for an international Datawarehouse project (Italy, Germany, Austria) on MS SQL, MSSIS, MSSAS, Cognos, with data input on a website written in PHP (by me). Currently, I am the senior developer in a CRM inhouse online solution (PHP, MSSQL) with currently a few hundred users. We are working on a total redo now because of drastic changes in requirements, and we evaluate a port to C# .NET. A comparable project to what we already have, was done in Germany in a bank with the help of Oracle consultants and a fat budget. I did it with one organizer and me, myself and I, no budget.

Do you want to make a comparison between you and me of LoC written over lifetime or even in this year? I daresay that this comparison would not end favourably for you.

Now, would you care, instead of just summa summaris dismissing what I wrote, to tell me what the paradigm is you are working for? Because honestly, if you are not only studying but also working at a university, and I assume you work in a field related to software development, then there is no way that you can ignore basic concepts like analysis of needs and technical analysis the way you do. This would speak of a level of not understanding software development of whole systems. And I fail to believe that. So, there must be a logical reason why you act the way you do, and the only thing I can think of is that your goal for blackboxframework.org must be something totally different from what the rest of the center wants. I want to know what that is. (Of course, this presumes that you read and understood what I wrote so far. Short answers without any substance make me question this presumption, though)
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby valexey » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:00 pm

ReneK wrote:
Ivan Denisov wrote:Reading you I am not believe that you have experience in software development.


;v) You really want to go there?

I started professional software development in 1992 when I was employed at the Austrian worker's union for white collar workers (http://www.gpa-djp.at/servlet/ContentSe ... ex&n=GPA_0). Development in VB on Win3.1 and in C on Sinix. After 1 year, I switched to Konsum, a then major food trade company in Austria. Development in PL/I on IBM3270, both CICS and BATCH. After 2 years, I switched to PLOT AG (http://www.plot.at), who rented me out to Telekom Austria (now A1, http://www.a1.net/), development in DL/I, PL/I, COBOL on IBM3270 and project management (this was in 1996), both CICS and BATCH, next came SPARDAT (now ERSTE BANK IT, http://www.erstegroupit.com/at-de/), development in COBOL, ADABAS NATURAL, PL/1 both CICS and BATCH. Then Unicreditgroup's (https://www.unicreditgroup.eu/en.html) Bank Austria (http://www.bankaustria.at) then EDV-company DSI. I was project manager there again, and I programmed in PLI on IBM3270, both CICS and BATCH. After two years, that company urged me to switch away from PLOT and be their employee directly. That was in 2002. PLOT demanded 50.000 EUR transfer money, and Unicreditgroup Bank Austria paid willingly.

In 2009 I switched within Unicredtgroup and am now an employee of the bank itself. Unicredit is one of central Europe's systemically important financial institution (says the FSB), Bank Austria is the largest bank in Austria. For the last years I was project manager and project member for an international Datawarehouse project (Italy, Germany, Austria) on MS SQL, MSSIS, MSSAS, Cognos, with data input on a website written in PHP (by me). Currently, I am the senior developer in a CRM inhouse online solution (PHP, MSSQL) with currently a few hundred users. We are working on a total redo now because of drastic changes in requirements, and we evaluate a port to C# .NET. A comparable project to what we already have, was done in Germany in a bank with the help of Oracle consultants and a fat budget. I did it with one organizer and me, myself and I, no budget.

Do you want to make a comparison between you and me of LoC written over lifetime or even in this year? I daresay that this comparison would not end favourably for you.

Now, would you care, instead of just summa summaris dismissing what I wrote, to tell me what the paradigm is you are working for? Because honestly, if you are not only studying but also working at a university, and I assume you work in a field related to software development, then there is no way that you can ignore basic concepts like analysis of needs and technical analysis the way you do. This would speak of a level of not understanding software development of whole systems. And I fail to believe that. So, there must be a logical reason why you act the way you do, and the only thing I can think of is that your goal for blackboxframework.org must be something totally different from what the rest of the center wants. I want to know what that is. (Of course, this presumes that you read and understood what I wrote so far. Short answers without any substance make me question this presumption, though)


If it is your CV, then please add it here: viewforum.php?f=31

Thanks.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby vlad » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:02 pm

ReneK wrote:;v) You really want to go there?


Do you have any experience with open software development? Do you have any experience with version control systems? I'm not questioning your authority - just to complete a full picture.

I'm software engineer in small company. I have a little experience in open software development. I'm good with one centralized version control system (small team) and have a some experience with distributed version control systems (throughout open software development).
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby vlad » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:07 pm

Ivan Denisov wrote:nobody whats tree of different BlackBoxes. But we wants that every has ability to suggest the fix or feature based on current stable version for further discussion but the "center".


Agree. I can't imagine "linear sequence of releases", it's something unrelated to open software development.

P.S. Still, as I said before, you can do it in your authentic way. Thanks for detailed explanation.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby Ivan Denisov » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:10 pm

ReneK wrote:The Center provides one of those distributions. Development on this distribution is not a DAG and not a tree, but rather a linear sequence of releases. At any moment in time, there is one, and only one finished release (to avoid the words "stable version". By "finished" I mean that it is refactored, tested and documented according to the standards set up by the center) of this distribution, which is as backward-compatible as possible to earlier finished releases of this distribution. Work on such a release is not only done by center members, but of the whole community, but it is the center members who finally decide what changes and additions make it into the finished release. The user-adapted distributions basically form a tree with the center-distribution, and "good ideas" and "bug fixes" done by the wider community are integrated into the center distribution, if the center members see the value thereof.

Good strategy and I have very close vision.

ReneK wrote:We envision blackboxframework.org to provide polished releases of our version of BBF on a regular basis, and to be a major player - and so far we are the first and only international post OMI BBF project...
That can be the aim of the "center".
- to provide polished releases of our version of BBF on a regular basis
IMHO, "polished releases" = "stable releases"

ReneK wrote:If your vision and our vision do not fit together, we will not be able to work together on a common goal - because we don't have one. We will only be able to fight each other and hurt each other, thus doing a disservice to the cause that does unite us (the promotion and future of BB) and to the community. And thus it is useless for me to try to convert you to my thinking, and vice versa. It would be better to part ways on a friendly basis.

Please, stop fighting me, Rene. I think, that your thinking is like mine except few details. I am ready to continue work for the common aim = polished releases of our version of BBF.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby Ivan Denisov » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:16 pm

ReneK wrote:I started professional software development in 1992 when I was employed at the Austrian worker's union for white collar workers (http://www.gpa-djp.at/servlet/ContentSe ... ex&n=GPA_0). Development in VB on Win3.1 and in C on Sinix. After 1 year, I switched to Konsum, a then major food trade company in Austria. Development in PL/I on IBM3270, both CICS and BATCH. After 2 years, I switched to PLOT AG (http://www.plot.at), who rented me out to Telekom Austria (now A1, http://www.a1.net/), development in DL/I, PL/I, COBOL on IBM3270 and project management (this was in 1996), both CICS and BATCH, next came SPARDAT (now ERSTE BANK IT, http://www.erstegroupit.com/at-de/), development in COBOL, ADABAS NATURAL, PL/1 both CICS and BATCH. Then Unicreditgroup's (https://www.unicreditgroup.eu/en.html) Bank Austria (http://www.bankaustria.at) then EDV-company DSI. I was project manager there again, and I programmed in PLI on IBM3270, both CICS and BATCH. After two years, that company urged me to switch away from PLOT and be their employee directly. That was in 2002. PLOT demanded 50.000 EUR transfer money, and Unicreditgroup Bank Austria paid willingly.

In 2009 I switched within Unicredtgroup and am now an employee of the bank itself. Unicredit is one of central Europe's systemically important financial institution (says the FSB), Bank Austria is the largest bank in Austria. For the last years I was project manager and project member for an international Datawarehouse project (Italy, Germany, Austria) on MS SQL, MSSIS, MSSAS, Cognos, with data input on a website written in PHP (by me). Currently, I am the senior developer in a CRM inhouse online solution (PHP, MSSQL) with currently a few hundred users. We are working on a total redo now because of drastic changes in requirements, and we evaluate a port to C# .NET. A comparable project to what we already have, was done in Germany in a bank with the help of Oracle consultants and a fat budget. I did it with one organizer and me, myself and I, no budget.


So, you are very experienced member! Yours CV will be an example for others to fill the CV forum.

The question is that, because of this professionalism you think that around you all fools? No?

Why you think that I am suggesting such a hell?
ReneK wrote:every user of BB is the master of his own distribution of BB. Thus, there is not one central stem of the tree, but the future development of BB lies in a DAG-like structure. Everyone who wants can contribute his personal distribution to the DAG, and everybody takes out of the DAG whatever he wants to form his personal distribution.

If I thought so, what for did I make such forum? Collected PayPal donations? And trying to drive the collective discussions? Initiate votings? For ONE main line of development!

This ONE can be then the base for not "center" projects and are not connected with BLACKBOXFRAMEWORK.ORG. However "center" can support the platform for discussion, development and distribution of branch projects.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:32 am

valexey wrote:If it is your CV, then please add it here: viewforum.php?f=31

Thanks.


No, this is not my CV. This is an answer to a impertinent insinuation that I somehow had no experience in software development. And of course, the answer to such an ad hominem attack needs to be in the same thread as the ad hominem itself.

Imagine in a thread about HostWindows in BB, I would have claimed that possibly you did little children. Would your angry answer be part of a CV thread, or rather part of the thread where my character assassination had been made? Would you accept, if I claimed that your response is OT, as long as my unfair and also completely OT attack remained in the thread about HostWindows in BB? How would you feel, if I answered your response in that very same thread by claiming that you constantly post off topic, always lecture and had better done so in a PM instead of a thread post?
Last edited by ReneK on Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:56 am

vlad wrote:Do you have any experience with open software development? Do you have any experience with version control systems? I'm not questioning your authority - just to complete a full picture.


Yes, as part of the using community, which included reporting bugs and proposing fixes and changes:
Pentaho
OTRS

No, if you mean if I already spearheaded an opensource development.

As I already told the members of the OMI-BB-Mailing-List, in my sparetime I am the director of an online academic foundation of volunteers, which produces papers, maintains a website, teaches new members to keep a high academic standard, organizes real world conferences and writes books. I've been doing this for the last 10 years. Though this is not software development, the processes involved are very similar to OpenSoftware, since the latter is a non-academic usage of principles of open academic work.

Also, I volunteer at the Red Cross, and I am a member of the presidency (though we call my function "First Counsellor to the Bishop", in fact the position I fill out is vice-president.) in our local church (170 members attending regularily, all the functions are strictly done by volunteers). We have a functioning youth program, a women organisation, a men organisation, a primary organisation, a sunday school, a missionary service, a visiting service (every family is visited by 2 men monthly, with some families this is just a nice hour of talking, with others it is help with finances, or help when moving or so, and then there is marriage counselling and so on, and we've also had to care for and counsel the pregnant girlfriend of a small drug dealer and addict who beat her with chains regularily. If you can motivate volunteers with families to visit such a variety of people on a monthly base and render valuable service there, you need to learn how to lead volunteers. We have 110 functions in our local church, which are directed by the bishop and his two counsellors, and we are part of a 15 Mio church, which means interaction with other units and with the superstructure. I've worked in this environment for the last 25 years, I have more than enough experience with volunteer work, I dare say.

And no, this again is not a CV, but just an answer to a honest question asked in this thread, wherefor I write it in this thread.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:45 am

Ivan Denisov wrote:Why you think that I am suggesting such a hell?


As I said:
if you are not only studying but also working at a university, and I assume you work in a field related to software development, then there is no way that you can ignore basic concepts like analysis of needs and technical analysis the way you do. This would speak of a level of not understanding software development of whole systems. And I fail to believe that. So, there must be a logical reason why you act the way you do, and the only thing I can think of is that your goal for blackboxframework.org must be something totally different from what the rest of the center wants.


Ivan Denisov wrote:The question is that, because of this professionalism you think that around you all fools? No?


No. I make my opinion about people not because of what I am, but because of how they act. I will only think someone to be a fool, if he acts the part. And I give everybody the benefit of the doubt. That's why I was dilligently searching for a mindset, a logical reason why you act the way you do, exactly because I do not want to believe that you are a fool! But instead of explaining, you started insulting me and my professional expertise. And you already knew about it, because I wrote it all on the OMI-BB-list, and you answered to that back then! So, yours could not have been a friendly question, but only a personal attack. I had exactly no chance to interprete your rude and impertinent question in any other way, though I tried. Especially, since I tried my best to be polite and even friendly, and I do believe my post was a constructive part of the discussion - trying to find out where our visions digress to produce such different attitudes and way of acting, without having to fall back to the explanation you used against me: "It seems, you do not know what you are talking about".

Also, with OberonCore for instance, there is no such problem. We discuss our differences, and there were those, and then we find a common, professional solution. Also with Peter K, I had exactly zero problem confessing that he was right and I was wrong. So, I've already proven that I do not believe to be surrounded by fools here on this forum.

Yet, I do not understand your behavior and thinking. It's so foreign and so far away from my logic (please understand this in a post-modern way! I believe that my logic is surely not the only, or necessarily the "right" logic! This in no way is intended as an insult!), that I constantly wonder what's going on in your mind (please don't mistake this is for a thoughtless insult, or an insult at all, but rather as a thought process on my part), and I just can't figure it out. And over the weeks, I got the feeling that you simply do not care for others to understand you, your motives and your thoughts. In a team, no matter, if it's a volunteer team or a pay-work team, this would be bad news. There can be no team work without exchange that cares to understand and be understood.

Ivan Denisov wrote:If I thought so, what for did I make such forum? Collected PayPal donations? And trying to drive the collective discussions? Initiate votings? For ONE main line of development!


Honestly, it was the only way that came up in a few weeks of thinking hard about your actions, your motives and your methods, that could give me any hint of an explanation about you.

Your rush to "start doing now, don't think, don't discuss. Just vote, vote, vote, next topic" fits very well with the needs of paradigm 1.

You say paradigm 1 is "hell". The only problem I see with P1 is, that it cannot be done! It just doesn't work. But set aside this concern and consider P1 a few moments longer. Consider it in a way as if you had to defend that paradigm against yourself.

There is a certain logic behind paradigm 1, and once you accept the logic, you need a website, you need a repository, you need a forum, you need collections, and you need them now. Technical solutions are then by far more important than analysis of needs, discussion of standards, a white paper and so on. And that's how you've been acting the last weeks.

It is not in spite of your actions that I came up with P1 as probably your paradigm, but becauseof them. If you take the time to explain your thinking to me, then I will understand you. But as you did not explain, I had to come up with an explanation of my own. The explanation I found is obviously wrong, so I'm back to not understanding you. ;-(

I hope that you don't see this as a lecture again, but rather as my trial to give you opportunity to understand me, instead of wondering about my thoughts and coming to wrong conclusions.



This ONE can be then the base for not "center" projects and are not connected with BLACKBOXFRAMEWORK.ORG. However "center" can support the platform for discussion, development and distribution of branch projects.[/quote]
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