"Center" forums restrictions

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"Center" forums restrictions

Postby vlad » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:50 pm

Folks,

This is just crazy. Why did you restrict posting to the "center" forums? Are you so overflowed with stupid ideas/comments from not so smart members so you really need to have a such brutal filter as "only the ones can post here"? Don't you afraid of not hearing from not so big community as it is?
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby Ivan Denisov » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:53 pm

vlad, I am on yours side :)

The idea of Rene was, that it will decrease moderation needs.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby valexey » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:55 pm

Ivan Denisov wrote:vlad, I am on yours side :)

The idea of Rene was, that it will decrease moderation needs.


I'm agree with both of you – right now community doesn't needs this filter. It is useless and unnecessary.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby Peter Kushnir » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:06 pm

Hey, guys, feel free to enjoy absolute freedom on your own forum ;)
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby valexey » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:17 pm

Peter Kushnir wrote:Hey, guys, feel free to enjoy absolute freedom on your own forum ;)

Thank you for your offtopic. It is fun, but useless.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby Peter Kushnir » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:38 pm

Who are you to decide?
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:49 pm

Ivan Denisov wrote:vlad, I am on yours side :)

The idea of Rene was, that it will decrease moderation needs.



This is wrong. I do not know if you just don't know it better, but you MIGHT want to ask other center members about their opinion, before you make me the boogey man.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:52 pm

valexey wrote:
Peter Kushnir wrote:Hey, guys, feel free to enjoy absolute freedom on your own forum ;)

Thank you for your offtopic. It is fun, but useless.


So, how exactly is it "off topic" to the discussion of "center forums restriction"? I think this is 100% on topic: If someone does not like what the center members decide, they are free to make their own BB-OpenSource project. Nobody forces them to be here.

And if Ivan does not like the idea of a center, if this is all too much bureaucracy for him, even he does not need to be "here" (meaning the blackboxframework.org URL). The URL just needs to be transferred, together with the funds, and then he can do whatever he wants, without us pesky bureaucrats.

Maybe you want to help him do just that, Alex?
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby vlad » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:41 pm

ReneK wrote:And if Ivan does not like the idea of a center, if this is all too much bureaucracy for him, even he does not need to be "here" (meaning the blackboxframework.org URL). The URL just needs to be transferred, together with the funds, and then he can do whatever he wants, without us pesky bureaucrats.


Sorry. I wanted to help to move project forward because it seems to me it is going to nowhere. But I see now that my attempts make the situation here even worse. Now separatist tones are added to solid bureaucracy. So do what you want to do in your Ents way, I'm not going to disturb you by my hasty suggestions.
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:22 am

Vlad,

I think that between Ivan (who is a center member), you and Alex (as not center members) on one side and the rest of the active center members there is a fundamental difference in opinion on what the community needs and how to do things. This paradigm difference is the cause of the chaos and the "animosity". We simply do not talk of the same things with the words we use.

Let me explain.

1) Paradigm A
If I understand Ivan's propositions correctly (and I may err here!) he proposes that every user of BB is the master of his own distribution of BB. Thus, there is not one central stem of the tree, but the future development of BB lies in a DAG-like structure. Everyone who wants can contribute his personal distribution to the DAG, and everybody takes out of the DAG whatever he wants to form his personal distribution.

In this paradigm, there is no need at all for "center members", no need for planning, no need for rules, no "bureaucracy", as you call it. But you need technical solutions, and you need them ASAP. Somebody will use it. In this paradigm, the centralizing is all about providing technical containers for the community to throw in their time, thoughts and work. Whatever technical tool one can think of needs to be implemented as quickly as possible.

Ivan, Alex, Vlad, if I misunderstand or misinterprete you here, or if the concept is what you want, but my words above are in any ways unfair or demeaning, please correct me.

2) Paradigm B
There are several distributions of BB out there in the 'net. Everybody has the right to make his own distribution, to publish it and to sell it or whatever he wants done with it. The Center provides one of those distributions. Development on this distribution is not a DAG and not a tree, but rather a linear sequence of releases. At any moment in time, there is one, and only one finished release (to avoid the words "stable version". By "finished" I mean that it is refactored, tested and documented according to the standards set up by the center) of this distribution, which is as backward-compatible as possible to earlier finished releases of this distribution. Work on such a release is not only done by center members, but of the whole community, but it is the center members who finally decide what changes and additions make it into the finished release. The user-adapted distributions basically form a tree with the center-distribution, and "good ideas" and "bug fixes" done by the wider community are integrated into the center distribution, if the center members see the value thereof.

In this paradigm, there is absolute need of the "center". The benefit of the "center" release is that it combines more than one programmer fighting for his distribution, but rather a consortium, if you so will, who work together and who can do more together.

One could say that Paradigm B forms a subset of Paradigm A. But while those who propose Paradigm A want a central space for all developments of BB related material, proponents of B say that this central space is the WWW itself and thus already exist. You will never get everybody who does anything with BB to commit to ONE technical platform (website, forum, repository, whatever). In our view, it is impossible to centralize this, because you cannot make everybody jump your bandwagon. Therefore the only chance we see is in the centralizing of a subset of distributions. Because this is the best you can hope to achieve at all.

But to gain this, we need rules, we need a "center", we need analysing and planning. We need rules and this pesky "bureaucracy". They are not a hinderance, but rather central to the idea.

As I see it, this is what has been done with f.i. Linux and other OpenSource projects. There are several large, and several small joint ventures who produce distributions, though nobody can or wants to hinder a user to make his own personal distribution and use and publish it as he sees fit. Yet, the large distributions have an important role, for the not so technic savvy users do not need to build their distribution from scratch, but they can choose the distribution that fits their needs the most, and then develop their own from there.


By having "center members" and a "center members only" forum, the "center" has decided what it (as the collective of members) wants to be and what kind of paradigm it wants to promote. It was also the outcome of discussion on the OMI-BB-list.

My rather pointed and sarcastic words and Peter's post telling you and who ever thinks alike that nobody hinders you to handle things differently somewhere else was not about separatism, but rather a direct reflection of the paradigm we work from.

He who does not want to work in this paradigm, is free any time to do good work in what way he thinks best. There is, in this paradigm, no need to force every idea about BB to be on blackboxframework.org.

We don't envision blackboxframework.org to be the "omnibus" of BB, because we believe this task would be insurmountable. We envision blackboxframework.org to provide polished releases of our version of BBF on a regular basis, and to be a major player - and so far we are the first and only international post OMI BBF project - in the concert of all BBF distributions.

If your vision and our vision do not fit together, we will not be able to work together on a common goal - because we don't have one. We will only be able to fight each other and hurt each other, thus doing a disservice to the cause that does unite us (the promotion and future of BB) and to the community. And thus it is useless for me to try to convert you to my thinking, and vice versa. It would be better to part ways on a friendly basis.

It was not my intention to hurt your feelings or to diminsh you or your opinion.
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