"Center" forums restrictions

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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:48 pm

vlad wrote:I can't imagine "linear sequence of releases", it's something unrelated to open software development.


How so? If you take a look at Eclipse for instance, it is very much an OpenSource software, and we currently have release 4.3.1 there, and you can trace back through a linear sequence of releases.

Look at Apache, Php, OpenOffice, Pentaho or OTRS, and you will find the same to be true. They have version/release numbers, and that's because they have a linear sequence of "stable" or "finished" releases.

But if you take one version of f.i. OpenOffice and then do your own project, that's fine, and you can do it. You will have to use a different name, though, like LibreOffice, for instance, and you will there have your linear releases.

If you take StarOffice, OpenOffice and LibreOffice, they form a tree. And since multiple user-developers probably have made their own subversions, that tree does not only have 3 branches, of which 1 is actually dead.

So, how are linear releases unrelated to open software development?

vlad wrote:P.S. Still, as I said before, you can do it in your authentic way. Thanks for detailed explanation.



I'm not sure we talk about different things. Maybe it is just a translation or word usage issue.

I wrote:

Work on such a release is not only done by center members, but of the whole community, but it is the center members who finally decide what changes and additions make it into the finished release. The user-adapted distributions basically form a tree with the center-distribution, and "good ideas" and "bug fixes" done by the wider community are integrated into the center distribution, if the center members see the value thereof.


So, of course, the contribution (analysing further devolopments and bugs, fixing bugs and actually doing development, testing, writing of documentation and so on) of the whole community is wanted, needed and welcome.

But just as not the whole LibreOffice-Community makes final decisions and publishes releases (but rather the Open Document Foundation), it is not the whole community BB that should and could make final decisions in this project, but rather the Center.

I think this is very much how most OpenSource projects I know operate, AFAIK.

If you see things differently, please explain, so that we both can weigh the arguments and both can learn.
ReneK
 
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby vlad » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:33 pm

ReneK wrote:I've worked in this environment for the last 25 years, I have more than enough experience with volunteer work, I dare say.


Interesting background. What country/city is it (I know it is offtopic, but just out of curiosity - there are no such organizations in our town AFAIK)?
vlad
 
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby vlad » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:06 pm

ReneK wrote:
vlad wrote:I can't imagine "linear sequence of releases", it's something unrelated to open software development.


How so? If you take a look at Eclipse for instance, it is very much an OpenSource software, and we currently have release 4.3.1 there, and you can trace back through a linear sequence of releases.


OK. Let us see:
http://git.eclipse.org/c/

There is a lot of repositories and branches. Publicly accessed. "Linear sequence of releases" are only in main download area (which is absolutely fine).

So, where is BB "center" repository? Let's pretend I'm a humble BB user and I have a fix/improvement for BB. And I have not much free time. So ideally:
- I go to google.com and search for "BlackBox framework source code".
- Checkout current developer branch.
- Apply my fix/improvement.
- Make a pull request.

That's it. Then I can (optionally) communicate to someone from "center" regrading to my pull request.

I don't want to:
- Discuss my fix/improvement on the forum (I can do it later, if I want to).
- Became a "center" member or apply somehow for access to the secret "center" branch.
- Think about "linear sequence of releases" or how my fix is going make there.

ReneK wrote:So, how are linear releases unrelated to open software development?


My point is there are many points/stages between releases. And these points should be opened for everyone who wants to commit. That is open software development.

ReneK wrote:
Work on such a release is not only done by center members, but of the whole community, but it is the center members who finally decide what changes and additions make it into the finished release.


Yeah, surely there should be somebody authorized to accept or reject changes. My major objection was against hiding things under "center" so non-center members can see only "linear releases" and no more.
vlad
 
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:08 pm

vlad wrote:
My point is there are many points/stages between releases. And these points should be opened for everyone who wants to commit. That is open software development.
...
Yeah, surely there should be somebody authorized to accept or reject changes. My major objection was against hiding things under "center" so non-center members can see only "linear releases" and no more.


OK, I see what you mean, Vlad.

Fact is, that as of now we (meaning the center) are just in the very initial baby steps of building up the project and organizing ourselves. We need to get to know each other in a way that we do not get in each other's hair every time someone says something. We need to make sure that we agree on the vision, the procedures and legal stuff (like the pesky trademark issue) and so on.

This is very normal "project pre-kickoff stuff".

Honestly, this could and probably should have started when OMI decided to make BB OpenSource in the first place, and as a matter of fact, I proposed this all those years ago. But back then, the international community's reaction was basically non-existant, and it was not so necessary back then, because OMI still was holding the reins.

So, when we reach our kickoff, it may well be useful to have a form of repository. But first, we need to get this project in the kickoff phase. Technical details need to wait. For the moment, there is only one version which is relevant, and that is the final release by OMI. And for one version, you do not need a versioning tool. Basically, that is also why I objected to having the center discussion (the pre-kickoff discussions!) on a forum which looks like we are already well on the way post-kickoff! It raises expectations in the community that we are not ready to meet at the moment. And some of us are trying our best to get the members to focus on all that is necessary pre-kickoff. Instead of doing that, we are prematurely discussing things that are farther down the road of this project, stumbling around like amateurs. And frustrate the wider community because of misunderstandings and wrong expectations.

I knew this would happen, if we started our collaboration in this way, I warned against this, and so did some of the others. But unfortunately, we are depicted as the "bureaucrats", the "brakesmen", those who idle their time away with silly talk, while the "doers" cannot go on in this "bureaucratic swamp".

I would urge the community to be patient. To give us time to get this project on a solid foundation. To let us get to know each other. All of us are volunteers, and I for one do not expect to get any money from this. I'm married, I have 4 kids, age 13 to 22, I have a breadwinning job with 50 to 60 hours per week, I volunteer at the Red Cross as an ambulance man twice a month, and as I said, I am a counsellor to the bishop with lots of work to do. And I bet, most of the other center members have much to do, too. We are committed to serve the community as best as we can, and to bring our various experiences into this project. We cannot do it without the community, and we do not want to do it without them. But if we cannot get the 10 of us organized, how should this work with the whole community, and you know that there is a critical number of active community members for an OpenSource project to succeed.

I hope this makes things more clear for you, just as your post, Vlad, helped me understand and value your PoV better.
ReneK
 
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OT: Where does Rene live

Postby ReneK » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:11 pm

vlad wrote:
ReneK wrote:I've worked in this environment for the last 25 years, I have more than enough experience with volunteer work, I dare say.


Interesting background. What country/city is it (I know it is offtopic, but just out of curiosity - there are no such organizations in our town AFAIK)?


I live in Vienna, Austria, Europe.

The church I attend is the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-Day Saints, better known as the Mormons (and no, we do not have polygamy :) - honestly: Who would want more than one mother-in-law???).

The academic volunteer organisation is international, so it's not locally restricted to Vienna.
ReneK
 
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby vlad » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:25 pm

ReneK wrote:I hope this makes things more clear for you, just as your post, Vlad, helped me understand and value your PoV better.


Yes, I think I understand you better now. Thank you for explanation. I will wait while the solid foundation is established.
vlad
 
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Re: "Center" forums restrictions

Postby ReneK » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:15 pm

Vlad, thank you for the support. I currently also see a conflict brewing in the center. This is not unusual, but when the wider community takes sides too early (before the center has established itself), then such conflict can lead to a breach, with parts of the community taking sides and so on. Such conflicts then tend to escalate. As of now, I do not see a reason for that. I hope, that we can solve the problem internally, to the satisfaction of all center members and the community. We as a community are not large enough to be able to deal with a breach without severe effects on the whole.
ReneK
 
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